In light of the rather embarassing statement by a commenter recently that no matter how many perverts, criminals, and serial liars this administration contains, the Clinton administration was far worse, I present this stroll down (lack of) memory lane, again from TPM's Veracifier.
posted by The Inside Dope @ 11/23/2007
12 comments
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12 Comments:
This Gonzalez thing was overblown. I mean BFD, Let's get real, political firings happen all the time. So some attorneys got fired -We oughta fire more of them.
Remember a few years ago, how we heard how it was so important to appoint Hispanics to top government posts? Sounds good. Who could be against that? Then in Gonzales, we finally got one, and look what happened. The liberals hounded him out of office.
Yes, the Clinton administration was comparably more scandal-ridden. The fact is that the Clinton administration was constantly being investigated
and probed and indicted...from start to finish, from Day 1 and Travelgate all the way to the last day and the Marc Rich pardon. Yes, I know you guys think that he walks on water and I know you hate Bush's guts, blah-blah-blah. But the number of scandals and the frequency of scandals and ethical lapses in the Clinton administration is a matter of historical fact and he was 1 of 2 presidents to actually be impeached.
Nico, you're dangerous.
First of all, it IS very much a "big deal" when a agency (the Justice Dept.) which is supposed to serve the citizens of the country, instead becomes completely captured by politics and run at the pleasure of the White House. This indeed is a very "big deal" as it turns the role of the Justice Dept. on it's head.
Why do you think there were so many people resigning? It nearly destroyed the functioning of the Justice Dept. and at one point there wasn't anyone in the top 3 or 4 positions!
Secondly, Gonzalez was an obvious unqualified hack, put there for the sole purpose of keeping the law away from Bush and his cronies. Thirdly, if you think any reasonably intelligent person could have that massive a bout of amnesia when asked about what he did and when by congress, then .. I don't know what to say. Gonzo was clearly lying his ass off and obstructing justice himself.
There are many other issues which he was dead wrong about as well, and he did great damage to the Justice Dept by his blatant shilling for Bush.
Gonzalez was Bush's private lawyer and when he was plopped down as Attorney General, he behaved as if he thought he was still in that position. That's unacceptible in any circumstance.
When politics trumps the law with the very person charged with enforcing the law, then yeah, it's a "big deal".
And do you even hear what you're saying?
You cling to this myth that the Clinton administration was somehow more corrupt because THEY WERE ALWAYS BEING INVESTIGATED????!!!!!
Jesus! Yeah, when you've got a gang of looney tunes Republicans doing nothing BUT holding phoney baloney fishing expeditions and not attending to the business of the country, yeah, that's what you get.
What does it say that the hundreds upon hundreds of millions of YOUR tax dollars that were spent and the hundreds of hours utterly wasted while these nit-wits grand-standed trying to flog every fairy-tale story that came down the pike (including that loon from Indiana shooting a watermelon in his back yard to try to see if Vince Foster was murdered, and other such non-sense), what does it say when the congres literally stopped doing it's job and fell all over itself trying desperately to bring Clinton or anyone associated with him down, and they came up with..???????
You tell me. What did they find? What was proven?
A great big nothing, that's what.
It was one of the most insane periods in hundreds of years. There was literally an industry trying to feed all these wacked out tales and the Republicans wasted our time and money actually believing it.
And in the end, Clinton's popularity soared. Gee. Funny, huh?
Plainly put, ridiculous grandstanding and bullshit investigations into myths don't count as "corruption", unless you refer to the people wasting the time doing it.
So some senator wants to get in on the Clinton bandwagon and calls some hearings on some goofy thing like the White House Christmas card list or something, and to you that's proof of "corruption"?
Surely you see how goofy that notion is.
The Republicans have had a whole parade of crooks, liars, theives, and perverts busted and convicted, and that's with a congress that refused to provide any oversight at all, let alone run dozens of investigations!
Yet the Republican congress under Clinton stopped EVERYTHING and did nothing BUT investigate Clinton and his administration, and even so, came up with zip, nada, nuthin'.
So don't embarass yourself trying to cling to that false notion that the Clinton adminstration even held a candle to this gang when it comes to sheer corruption, ineptitude, and greed.
Wake up Dope. This place is getting stale. It's time to turn this blog over to a new generation. You are a tired old man!
And you're a syphylitic troll with a tail. (Hey, you don't have a clue what you're talking about... thought I'd join the party.)
Also, since you're so persistent in your bullshit attacks, maybe I'd point out to you a simple fact, not that it would ever slow down your attempt to rag and bitch.
Anyone can start a blog.
Think about that. I know it's probably a conplex thing for you to wrap your brain around, but give it a good hard try.
Am I to take all your bitching and non-sense about selling the blog, etc. as proof that you think no one else can possible create a blog as well as I can?
That seems obvious from your ridiculous line of thinking.
So thanks for the compliment.
Otherwise, spend your time bitching at the "new generation" for not starting a blog.
And after they see all the rock stupid morons like yourself that pass for commenters around this area, I couldn't blame them a bit for having no desire to do so at all.
Ok Dope, you being a socialist/ liberal, whatever...
What do you think of your tax dollars (I assume that you do pay taxes?) going to bail out those dealing with forclosure...
The government, in all areas, the Democrat Congress and now the Conference of Mayors, is discussing what can be done to assist those facing forclosure.
Now the government is there to deal with personal greed - people who have bought more house than they can afford. What is next...my credit card bill is too high, will my 'Uncle Sam' take care of this?
Of course, our liberal frends want to make certain that no one has personal responsibility or consequences for bad decisions, but isn't this going a bit too far?
Even you certainly cannot be excited about YOUR tax dollars being used in this manner, huh?
Big problem with your premise.
You, without much thought or knowledge of the subject at all, leap to satisfy your urge to blame someone other than businesses for the morgage crisis.
Obviously you read and absorb this crap from some source.
This crisis was not created by people buying "more house than they could afford". It's a bit more involved than that.
People will buy what they are told they can afford, and this crisis is almost entirely due to banks and other lending institutions offering sub-prime mortgages and other gimic mortgages that allow people to get into homes that under normal terms they could never get into.
But blaming the buyer entirely is less than fair, don't you think? What about the huge corporations that facilitated and peddled these gimic financing terms to begin with?
Your view is much like blaming some poor schmuck who had credit cards advertised to and pushed on them trumpeting a very very low rate, only to find that a year or so down the line, the rate skyrocketed without notice.
These "alternative" mortgage schemes were extremely complex and the average buyer simply didn't comprehend them, nor does the average buyer even want to. They only want to know what their monthly payments are and how long the term is. It's not too smart, agreed, but that's the way it is.
Then after these mortgages were issued, the financial institutions play around with them buying and selling them over and over until a buyer literally has no clue who actually holds their mortgage at any given time.
Then Wall St. gets involved and buys up tons of these instruments, and .... well, disaster ensues.
Yes, thousands of people bought a pig in a poke. But to lay the blame entirely on them is less than fair, and a bit disengenuous.
Thank you, you indeed confirmed what I expected...
It is not the individuals fault. SOMEONE told them that they can afford more house than they actually can?
Dang, I must be absolutely brilliant compared to your 'public.' You see, I actually understand that an adjustable rate might actually ADJUST!
I understand that if my budget calls for my ability to pay being, say,$1,200.00/ month, I had better not agree to $2,000.00/ month.
Wow, my IQ, by your estimation, must by 145!
So, I suppose (since you ducked the question) you are ok with your tax dollars bailing these people out?
So, (to go to the next logical point...) I suppose that individuals are not responsible for credit card debt as well? (Nasty corporate people forcing people to buy more than they can afford, right?)
No, you're a grouch who imagines a scenario then assumes that everyone who's in trouble fits neatly into it.
It's that simple.
If you think every home buyer is some sort of financial analyst and can devine every intricacy contained in these extremely complex schemes, then .. well, you're stupid.
It's not someone signing on the dotted line to agree to pay $3000 a month when they can only afford $1000, as you so cheaply assert.
It's someone who a realtor or mortgage banker told could buy a house that should have had $3000 a month payments by only paying $1000.
THAT'S the problem. You completely misunderstand the problem by simply thinking it's just millions of homebuyers who suddenly, for no apparent reason, all decided to buy homes they couldn't possibly afford, all in the last few years.
That's ridiculous and you know it.
It's as I said, these sub-prime mortgages and flim-flam deals that were foisted on homebuyers that is the root of the crisis.
And you're so quick to condemn home buyers, but completely ignore the fact that banks and wall street funds have all bought up billions of dollars of these mortgages and are left holding the bag.
Apparently in your world, banks and financial institutions don't have the slightest reponsibility for deciding when loans are too risky? They bear no responsibility whatsoever for extending shaky loans to the tune of billions of dollars?
Guess not, it's those damn stupid people who are buying nice homes. Easier to dislike them, isn't it?
Come on - you cannot be as stupid as you lead on to being.
The subprime market has never put a gun to someone's head and make them buy more home than they wanted.
The subprime market REACTED to the reality of GREED. Individuals who want more than they can afford and will do anything to get it - even make bad decisions.
The subprime mortgage companies REACTED to the market. They are receiving the consequences that they DESERVE - as should those greedy little people who played the game.
It is no different than the millions of people who WANT more than they can AFFORD and run up credit card bills that they cannot afford.
No different.
Runaway greed, with people willing to capitalize on it.
Please stick to the point and tell me where I am wrong - as I am sure you will.
I know - these corporate people made poor unsuspecting buyers buy more house than they wanted, blah, blah, blah...
Listen, you can defend companies till the cows come home, and your nasty distaste for your fellow human beings is your problem.
But your view of this is WAY off the mark and flies in the face of literally every single economic writer who's ever addressed it.
Of course, you're simply a crank who would blame anyone rather than the true source of the greed here, namely the lenders.
They didn't REACT to the market. You're just pulling that out of the trash bin between your ears and you know it.
They concocted these "exotic" mortgages because the houseing market had focused on high priced housing and they couldn't find buyers. So they peddled these exotic contraptions which made it appear to buyers that they could managed the mortgage.
It's not their fault that they couldn't decypher a mortgage that even the salesman didn't understand.
Don't be such a prick. (tall order I know.)
The financial industry got their ass caught in a wringer, and you, being the reliable lemming you are, are chomping at the bit to rush to their defense and blame it on the average guy.
Gee. You're what makes this country great.
It's mindless obedience to corporate greed that has screwed up our entire economy.
Can't wait to see how you bitch and blame it on the average consumer when the economy tanks big time in the not too distant future.
Funny, last time that I was looking for houses, I actually knew that my range was between x and y.
So you are saying that most people, (1) have no clue what price range they can afford and (2) listen solely to their lender and realtor?
Sorry Dope, but lenders really do not get involved with most home loans until after the Buyer has looked at 20, 30 or 50 houses and has made an Offer.
I am going to have to side with anonymous - you seem to be reaching. Not everything is the evil corporations.
Ah... our old friend Melton or Moron or Madman or whatever.
You give yourself away by:
a. Your inanity and utter blindness to the fact that you're so pompous that you actualy believe you know exactly what was in people's heads when they were in the market for a house. Millions of them.
b. Your intense need to cram even mildly complex situations into pre-school simplicity and black and white terms.
c. Your ridiculous obsession with continuing an argument far past it's end, as if anything is being accomplished or anything is being learned.
d. Your constant habit of utterly ignoring all of my reasoning and arguments... and refusing to respond to them, but responding anyway.
e. Your constant habit of shaping the situation you're arguing about entirely in your own head in order to appear to be making some sort of point or argument (even though you're unable to do so unless you start from a false premise to begin with)
You can only be... now it comes to me... starts with M, ends with owen?
This is the last time I'm going to indulge your little hobby on this subject.
You're making the entirely WRONG assumption that this situation is as simple as people going into a deal knowing exactly what they're getting into. Knowingly being so foolish as to willingly get into a house they know full well they can never pay for.
I've said it several times now, but of course your brain is as absorbent as a chunk of rock.
You're trying to say (as if you could possibly know) that literally MILLIONS of people who were conned into these "exotic" mortgages by real estate agents, etc., that they ALL were just stupid greedy morons who thought it would be great to buy a house that they knew full well they could never pay for.
And this amazing phenomena just happened to spring up in the last several years out of nowhere. An epidemic of greed and stupidity, according to your faulty reasoning. (if you can call it that)
That alone proves you're wrong.
People were SOLD these "exotic" morgages.... they were talked into it. They were "sold", OK? I'm not saying that they were somehow hypnotized and agreed to something financially disasterous, so don't try to say that I am.
They had free will of course. But what you refuse to comprehend is that TO ALL APPEARANCES, the deals sounded and looked perfectly sound.
THAT'S why millions of otherwise rational and intelligent people got into them. Duh.
The people did NOT think they were getting into a mortgage they couldn't afford. The way these deals are structured, the payments ARE affordable. Even to someone who did a diligent job of looking everything over before entering into it, there was nothing to suggest that it was potentially disasterous.
You of course, refuse to acknowledge this fact because it blows your simple minded premise.
Another thing you refuse to acknowledge is that these are NOT traditional mortgages whatsoever.
These are extremely complex and not even the people who sell them understand how they work, OK????
Why aren't you aware of this? You obviously don't know much about the situation at all.
So to cover up that fact, you continually ignore the facts that prove your premise to be silly.
To review:
People COULD afford these mortgages, at least as they looked on paper. They were NOT, as you stupidly assert, knowingly buying more house than they could afford. They may have had doubts, but the helpful realtors would swear that they could, with the help of these wonderful new "exotic" mortgages. And after all, Bob and Judy and George and Brenda and their boss and other people all had gotten one... it couldn't be that bad.
Literally MILLIONS of people bought them. And you're still trying to suggest that every one of them were simply greedy morons who willingly bought something they knew they couldn't possibly afford?
It was a gimick cooked up by banks and realtors in order to push the glut of high priced homes onto buyers. And the simple fact is that it blew up in their faces.
I'll say it again, it's plainly obvious that your odd idea that several million home buyers were suddenly overcome with greed and ignorance and were utter financial morons just doesn't stand up.
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